Silicon Valley firms have poured billions of dollars into artificial intelligence. But a new cheap AI model from DeepSeek, a Chinese start-up, has sent shockwaves through the stockmarket. Our correspondent explains why investors are rattled. Canada’s remote indigenous communities are struggling to install solar power (9:37). And why you should lift weights (18:25). Runtime: 24 min

Silicon Valley firms have poured billions of dollars into artificial intelligence. But a new cheap AI model from <a href="https://www.economist.com/business/2025/01/27/deepseek-sends-a-shockwave-through-markets?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">DeepSeek</a>, a Chinese start-up, has sent shockwaves through the stockmarket. Our correspondent explains why investors are rattled. Canada’s remote indigenous communities are struggling to <a href="https://www.economist.com/the-americas/2024/10/31/justin-trudeau-is-paying-for-solar-panels-in-the-cold-dark-arctic?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">install solar power </a>(9:37). And why you should <a href="https://www.economist.com/science-and-technology/2025/01/10/should-you-start-lifting-weights?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">lift weights</a> (18:25). Runtime: 24 min

Listen on: <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-intelligence-from-the-economist/id1449631195" target="_blank">Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/12zKAMNyS2GNentUzxq9QN" target="_blank">Spotify</a>

Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—Subscribe to Economist Podcasts+

Listen to what matters most, from global politics and business to science and technology—<a href="https://subscribenow.economist.com/podcasts-plus" target="_blank">Subscribe to Economist Podcasts+</a>

For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our FAQs page or watch our video explaining how to link your account.

For more information about how to access Economist Podcasts+, please visit our <a href="https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/What-is-Economist-Podcasts" target="_blank">FAQs page</a> or watch <a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gczo71bg1uY" target="_blank">our video</a> explaining how to link your account.

The Intelligence 

Tech stocks tumble as DeepSeek debuts a cheap Chinese AI model

The Intelligence

Bot against America: a Chinese AI jolts markets

This podcast transcript is generated by third-party AI. It has not been reviewed prior to publication. We make no representations or warranties in relation to the transcript, its accuracy or its completeness, and we disclaim all liability regarding its receipt, content and use. If you have any concerns about the transcript, please email us at podcasts@economist.com.

This podcast transcript is generated by third-party AI. It has not been reviewed prior to publication. We make no representations or warranties in relation to the transcript, its accuracy or its completeness, and we disclaim all liability regarding its receipt, content and use. If you have any concerns about the transcript, please email us at <a href="mailto:podcasts@economist.com" target="_blank">podcasts@economist.com.</a>

<a href="https://myaccount.economist.com/s/article/How-we-handle-AI-generated-content">Read more about how we are using AI.</a>

Rosie Blau [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the Intelligence from The Economist. I’m Rosie Blau.

Rosie Blau [00:00:10] Hello and welcome to the Intelligence from The Economist. I’m Rosie Blau.

Jason Palmer [00:00:15] And I’m Jason Palmer. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Jason Palmer [00:00:15] And I’m Jason Palmer. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Rosie Blau [00:00:25] Some communities in Canada are so remote they aren’t connected to the power grid, to roads or anything much. Often these groups are also feeling the brunt of climate change. But as our correspondent found efforts to install green energy there are still hitting obstacles.

Rosie Blau [00:00:25] Some communities in Canada are so remote they aren’t connected to the power grid, to roads or anything much. Often these groups are also feeling the brunt of climate change. But as our correspondent found efforts to install green energy there are still hitting obstacles.

Jason Palmer [00:00:42] And everyone knows you should get plenty of cardiovascular exercise. Getting the heart revving just has so many positive effects now and later. But you know what else does? Strength training. Good things come to those who lift weights.

Jason Palmer [00:00:42] And everyone knows you should get plenty of cardiovascular exercise. Getting the heart revving just has so many positive effects now and later. But you know what else does? Strength training. Good things come to those who lift weights.

Rosie Blau [00:01:02] But first. Until now, a small number of American companies has dominated the field of artificial intelligence. Firms like Chip Maker and Vedere and Cloud Computing’s Oracle have attracted vast investment to become some of the highest valued companies in the world. But suddenly that dominance looks less certain.

Rosie Blau [00:01:02] But first. Until now, a small number of American companies has dominated the field of artificial intelligence. Firms like Chip Maker and Vedere and Cloud Computing’s Oracle have attracted vast investment to become some of the highest valued companies in the world. But suddenly that dominance looks less certain.

Clip [00:01:28] Stock futures are down sharply this morning amid fears of an AI stock bubble burst.

Clip [00:01:28] Stock futures are down sharply this morning amid fears of an AI stock bubble burst.

Rosie Blau [00:01:35] Over the weekend, a chat bot released by an obscure Chinese AI Start-Up called Deep Seek, became the most downloaded app on iPhones. Deep Sea claims that developing its new model cost a fraction of what American competitors have spent. And yesterday, in response, American tech stocks plummeted. Donald Trump called deep sea a wake up call for U.S. companies.

Rosie Blau [00:01:35] Over the weekend, a chat bot released by an obscure Chinese AI Start-Up called Deep Seek, became the most downloaded app on iPhones. Deep Sea claims that developing its new model cost a fraction of what American competitors have spent. And yesterday, in response, American tech stocks plummeted. Donald Trump called deep sea a wake up call for U.S. companies.

Clip [00:01:57] The release of deep sea air from a Chinese company should be a wake up call for our industries that we need to be laser focussed on competing to win because we have the greatest scientists in the world.

Clip [00:01:57] The release of deep sea air from a Chinese company should be a wake up call for our industries that we need to be laser focussed on competing to win because we have the greatest scientists in the world.

Rosie Blau [00:02:10] So can a cheap Chinese upstart really change the field of AI?

Rosie Blau [00:02:10] So can a cheap Chinese upstart really change the field of AI?

Guy Scriven [00:02:15] Over the course of a day, the euphoria over A.I. transformed into panic.

Guy Scriven [00:02:15] Over the course of a day, the euphoria over A.I. transformed into panic.

Rosie Blau [00:02:21] Guy Scriven is our global business writer.

Rosie Blau [00:02:21] Guy Scriven is our global business writer.

Guy Scriven [00:02:24] You saw the Nasdaq 100 stock exchange index drop by 3% yesterday before recovering some of its losses. You saw a lot of the really big tech companies suffer losses as well. So that’s companies like Alphabet, Amazon and Microsoft. Though, again, some of those companies recovered afterwards. But the really big news was that in video, which is this superstar HD chipmaker. Its share price dropped by over 10% yesterday and that wiped hundreds of billions of dollars off its market valuation.

Guy Scriven [00:02:24] You saw the Nasdaq 100 stock exchange index drop by 3% yesterday before recovering some of its losses. You saw a lot of the really big tech companies suffer losses as well. So that’s companies like Alphabet, Amazon and Microsoft. Though, again, some of those companies recovered afterwards. But the really big news was that in video, which is this superstar HD chipmaker. Its share price dropped by over 10% yesterday and that wiped hundreds of billions of dollars off its market valuation.

Rosie Blau [00:02:58] And Guy, this wild ride you’re talking about is being put down to Deep Sea, which is a Chinese air company running a new model. Tell me what’s so special about it.

Rosie Blau [00:02:58] And Guy, this wild ride you’re talking about is being put down to Deep Sea, which is a Chinese air company running a new model. Tell me what’s so special about it.

Guy Scriven [00:03:08] Deep Sea is a Chinese Start-Up. And over the past month or so, it’s released two very impressive AI models. The most recent one is called R one and was released only a few days ago. And that was the real trigger for all the market chaos. The thing you have to know about the kind of AI models that Deep Sea has released is that they both perform really quite well. They’ve done a lot of innovative things under the hood to really get the best performance out of out of these models. But they are also incredibly efficient and cheap to make because of American trade restrictions on AI chips. Chinese firms have been forced to be very innovative in the way they make A.I. models. And so the combination of these high performing models and the fact that they are very efficient is the root cause of the turmoil we saw yesterday in the markets.

Guy Scriven [00:03:08] Deep Sea is a Chinese Start-Up. And over the past month or so, it’s released two very impressive AI models. The most recent one is called R one and was released only a few days ago. And that was the real trigger for all the market chaos. The thing you have to know about the kind of AI models that Deep Sea has released is that they both perform really quite well. They’ve done a lot of innovative things under the hood to really get the best performance out of out of these models. But they are also incredibly efficient and cheap to make because of American trade restrictions on AI chips. Chinese firms have been forced to be very innovative in the way they make A.I. models. And so the combination of these high performing models and the fact that they are very efficient is the root cause of the turmoil we saw yesterday in the markets.

Rosie Blau [00:04:09] So the big question is, is deep sea actually any good?

Rosie Blau [00:04:09] So the big question is, is deep sea actually any good?

Guy Scriven [00:04:13] Well, at the moment, the models seem to perform quite competitively to Western rivals so that the kind of models the open AI makes. They also seem to have attracted a lot of users. So over the weekend, Deep Seeks app shop to the top of the App Store rankings. So they’re obviously very popular with consumers as well. So on the face of it, they seem to be both really quite good and basically quite cheap to make.

Guy Scriven [00:04:13] Well, at the moment, the models seem to perform quite competitively to Western rivals so that the kind of models the open AI makes. They also seem to have attracted a lot of users. So over the weekend, Deep Seeks app shop to the top of the App Store rankings. So they’re obviously very popular with consumers as well. So on the face of it, they seem to be both really quite good and basically quite cheap to make.

Rosie Blau [00:04:43] And they need less computing power to operate. Is that right?

Rosie Blau [00:04:43] And they need less computing power to operate. Is that right?

Guy Scriven [00:04:47] Yes, exactly. So the lower costs come from basically using less computing power. And the reason that’s important is because over the last couple of years since the launch of GPT, three American tech firms have spent an enormous amount of money and made an enormous amount of money, both buying and selling computing power in order to power AI models. Just last year, if you look at four of the really big tech firms, they spent about $280 billion just on datacenters, and most of that was to power A.I.. That figure is up more than 50% from the year before, and it’s predicted to go up by another 30% or so this year. And so there’s been this enormous spending glut on all sorts of pieces of infrastructure connected with AI. And the implication of these new deep seed models is that maybe that kind of level of spending and that amount of infrastructure may not actually be as needed as we previously thought.

Guy Scriven [00:04:47] Yes, exactly. So the lower costs come from basically using less computing power. And the reason that’s important is because over the last couple of years since the launch of GPT, three American tech firms have spent an enormous amount of money and made an enormous amount of money, both buying and selling computing power in order to power AI models. Just last year, if you look at four of the really big tech firms, they spent about $280 billion just on datacenters, and most of that was to power A.I.. That figure is up more than 50% from the year before, and it’s predicted to go up by another 30% or so this year. And so there’s been this enormous spending glut on all sorts of pieces of infrastructure connected with AI. And the implication of these new deep seed models is that maybe that kind of level of spending and that amount of infrastructure may not actually be as needed as we previously thought.

Rosie Blau [00:05:53] And as you say, Silicon Valley companies have spent years spending billions on AI investments, and this seems to have caught them somewhat on the fly. What are the implications then for the US tech industry?

Rosie Blau [00:05:53] And as you say, Silicon Valley companies have spent years spending billions on AI investments, and this seems to have caught them somewhat on the fly. What are the implications then for the US tech industry?

Guy Scriven [00:06:06] The kind of clearest initial implication concerns in video, which is a specialist AI chip maker. And that is that it may not be able to sell as many chips as we previously thought. If you could now train your own models using fewer chips, then that looks like it could be a big problem for Nvidia, which is why its share price sank so sharply yesterday. And then there are probably quite big ramifications for the cloud computing giants Google, Microsoft and Amazon. We don’t quite know how this is all going to play out yet. If you speak to different people on Wall Street, they say different things. Some people think that this will be good for them because one of the big inputs into the AI that they sell has become cheaper to make. Other people think that this is actually quite bad news because those were the only companies that had enough cash to spend large amounts of money on building out this infrastructure. And that created a kind of moat for their business model. And if anyone with the kind of reasonable amount of money now can also make these models, then that might start to erode that. Moat. So at the moment, for the big tech firms, we really don’t know how this is all going to shake out, I think.

Guy Scriven [00:06:06] The kind of clearest initial implication concerns in video, which is a specialist AI chip maker. And that is that it may not be able to sell as many chips as we previously thought. If you could now train your own models using fewer chips, then that looks like it could be a big problem for Nvidia, which is why its share price sank so sharply yesterday. And then there are probably quite big ramifications for the cloud computing giants Google, Microsoft and Amazon. We don’t quite know how this is all going to play out yet. If you speak to different people on Wall Street, they say different things. Some people think that this will be good for them because one of the big inputs into the AI that they sell has become cheaper to make. Other people think that this is actually quite bad news because those were the only companies that had enough cash to spend large amounts of money on building out this infrastructure. And that created a kind of moat for their business model. And if anyone with the kind of reasonable amount of money now can also make these models, then that might start to erode that. Moat. So at the moment, for the big tech firms, we really don’t know how this is all going to shake out, I think.

Rosie Blau [00:07:26] But presumably for us as consumers, more LIMs and more chat bots means, you know, more competition, cheaper, better things. That’s a good thing, right?

Rosie Blau [00:07:26] But presumably for us as consumers, more LIMs and more chat bots means, you know, more competition, cheaper, better things. That’s a good thing, right?

Guy Scriven [00:07:37] Yes, ultimately, this is probably quite good for us as consumers. I think this may well kind of trigger another arms race as lots of start-ups and big companies try to produce ever cheaper models. And so we as consumers, I think will benefit enormously from this and will hopefully we’ll see more ROI being kind of injected into our phones, into our apps, into our laptops and all kind of much more cheaply. But that said, there are still plenty of uncertainties around this innovation and kind of the ramifications of it as well. We don’t entirely know how the new costs and new economics of AI are going to play out. We don’t really know what this means for geopolitics. So if America feels like it’s starting to lose the AI race it has going with China, that could lead to further trade restrictions. And that could be quite bad for consumers and for markets as well. And another uncertainty hanging over all of this is really the ultimate demand for AI. So as much as chatbots are quite fun to play with, in order for AI to really take off, it has to be quite useful and quite well adopted in big companies. And at the moment big companies are struggling to take AI from pilots to large scale projects and how exactly the demand plays out will be another factor which will determine the future path of artificial intelligence.

Guy Scriven [00:07:37] Yes, ultimately, this is probably quite good for us as consumers. I think this may well kind of trigger another arms race as lots of start-ups and big companies try to produce ever cheaper models. And so we as consumers, I think will benefit enormously from this and will hopefully we’ll see more ROI being kind of injected into our phones, into our apps, into our laptops and all kind of much more cheaply. But that said, there are still plenty of uncertainties around this innovation and kind of the ramifications of it as well. We don’t entirely know how the new costs and new economics of AI are going to play out. We don’t really know what this means for geopolitics. So if America feels like it’s starting to lose the AI race it has going with China, that could lead to further trade restrictions. And that could be quite bad for consumers and for markets as well. And another uncertainty hanging over all of this is really the ultimate demand for AI. So as much as chatbots are quite fun to play with, in order for AI to really take off, it has to be quite useful and quite well adopted in big companies. And at the moment big companies are struggling to take AI from pilots to large scale projects and how exactly the demand plays out will be another factor which will determine the future path of artificial intelligence.

Rosie Blau [00:09:09] Guy, thank you so much.

Rosie Blau [00:09:09] Guy, thank you so much.

Guy Scriven [00:09:11] Thanks so much, Rosie.

Guy Scriven [00:09:11] Thanks so much, Rosie.

Rosie Blau [00:09:14] And yes, I know sometimes it feels like you’re hearing about a I and insert random topic here. But believe me, this is a good one. Tomorrow, our science podcast, Babbage is looking at how artificial intelligence may change sport. Only subscribers can listen. You know what to do.

Rosie Blau [00:09:14] And yes, I know sometimes it feels like you’re hearing about a I and insert random topic here. But believe me, this is a good one. Tomorrow, our science podcast, Babbage is looking at how artificial intelligence may change sport. Only subscribers can listen. You know what to do.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:09:41] It was during the pandemic that I started following the story of one green energy program happening in Canada that was working to replace all of the diesel generated electricity in the country’s remote northern and indigenous communities.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:09:41] It was during the pandemic that I started following the story of one green energy program happening in Canada that was working to replace all of the diesel generated electricity in the country’s remote northern and indigenous communities.

Rosie Blau [00:09:55] Sarah Lawrynuik is one of our senior producers.

Rosie Blau [00:09:55] Sarah Lawrynuik is one of our senior producers.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:09:58] These are communities not connected into the power grid of the South. Many are so remote there is no road that reaches them. So access is limited really to expensive flights on regional airlines ships in the summer. For those that are coastal and in the winter, when the lakes and rivers freeze, roads are built across them, across the tundra, through the forests to bring in freight. Burning diesel in these communities is bad for people’s health, and it’s bad from an emissions perspective, and it’s incredibly expensive and onerous to get fuel to these communities by these methods. So I was really interested in efforts to install green energy in these places. It seemed like one of those climate policy slam dunks the Canadian Liberal government had promised. But over time, following the story, I realised it just wasn’t that simple.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:09:58] These are communities not connected into the power grid of the South. Many are so remote there is no road that reaches them. So access is limited really to expensive flights on regional airlines ships in the summer. For those that are coastal and in the winter, when the lakes and rivers freeze, roads are built across them, across the tundra, through the forests to bring in freight. Burning diesel in these communities is bad for people’s health, and it’s bad from an emissions perspective, and it’s incredibly expensive and onerous to get fuel to these communities by these methods. So I was really interested in efforts to install green energy in these places. It seemed like one of those climate policy slam dunks the Canadian Liberal government had promised. But over time, following the story, I realised it just wasn’t that simple.

Clip [00:10:51] And so I was the very first cohort to go through the Indigenous Clean Energy summer Intensive training program in 2016.

Clip [00:10:51] And so I was the very first cohort to go through the Indigenous Clean Energy summer Intensive training program in 2016.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:11:00] And during one of those online conferences that was just so pervasive during the pandemic, I met a man named Darryl Brown who was already working in this field. At the time, he had already successfully installed a solar project in Gull Bay First Nation in 2018, which had eliminated a quarter of that community’s reliance on diesel electricity. Darryl is indigenous himself of Cree heritage, and this was in many ways how academics and policymakers have suggested programs like this should be run in Canada. The government should be empowering indigenous leaders to build bridges with indigenous communities to try to make amends for the past treatment of Indigenous people.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:11:00] And during one of those online conferences that was just so pervasive during the pandemic, I met a man named Darryl Brown who was already working in this field. At the time, he had already successfully installed a solar project in Gull Bay First Nation in 2018, which had eliminated a quarter of that community’s reliance on diesel electricity. Darryl is indigenous himself of Cree heritage, and this was in many ways how academics and policymakers have suggested programs like this should be run in Canada. The government should be empowering indigenous leaders to build bridges with indigenous communities to try to make amends for the past treatment of Indigenous people.

Clip [00:11:41] So not only are you reducing emissions.

Clip [00:11:41] So not only are you reducing emissions.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:11:44] And in meeting Darryl, I was immediately inspired by his drive to bring green energy to First Nations.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:11:44] And in meeting Darryl, I was immediately inspired by his drive to bring green energy to First Nations.

Clip [00:11:50] They also become revenue generators of power, electricity, so now they have ownership in their own destiny and there’s jobs, employment training. So everything that encompasses indigenous renewable energy work is really very effective, I think, in lifting all of our first nations out of poverty.

Clip [00:11:50] They also become revenue generators of power, electricity, so now they have ownership in their own destiny and there’s jobs, employment training. So everything that encompasses indigenous renewable energy work is really very effective, I think, in lifting all of our first nations out of poverty.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:12:13] His first project was in a community that had road access. So logistically it was easier than the next one. He tried to set up in, say, DNA First Nation. In this community, he wanted to build a wind, solar and battery powered microgrid. And this community is about 300 people in the very northern stretches of the province of Manitoba, 900km from the provincial capital. So this has meant logistical nightmares from the beginning. I was meant to go to see Sydney last time I was in Canada, but when I got to the airport for our charter flight, we were all met with disappointment.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:12:13] His first project was in a community that had road access. So logistically it was easier than the next one. He tried to set up in, say, DNA First Nation. In this community, he wanted to build a wind, solar and battery powered microgrid. And this community is about 300 people in the very northern stretches of the province of Manitoba, 900km from the provincial capital. So this has meant logistical nightmares from the beginning. I was meant to go to see Sydney last time I was in Canada, but when I got to the airport for our charter flight, we were all met with disappointment.

Clip [00:12:49] When this low ceiling would have prevented us potentially from landing. So he says, You want to roll the dice like you can.

Clip [00:12:49] When this low ceiling would have prevented us potentially from landing. So he says, You want to roll the dice like you can.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:12:58] This was just one example of the things that have slowed this project down for years. The pandemic slowed progress. And with climate change, those ice roads I told you about, the season is becoming shorter and more unpredictable. So getting freight into the community is becoming a much harder task. Another aspect of this is that the provincial utility companies are not incentivised to make deals on these novel projects. And then lastly, history and politics are playing a role here, too. And that might be the most delicate of the situations to navigate.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:12:58] This was just one example of the things that have slowed this project down for years. The pandemic slowed progress. And with climate change, those ice roads I told you about, the season is becoming shorter and more unpredictable. So getting freight into the community is becoming a much harder task. Another aspect of this is that the provincial utility companies are not incentivised to make deals on these novel projects. And then lastly, history and politics are playing a role here, too. And that might be the most delicate of the situations to navigate.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:13:32] Part of our struggles in the last little while is trying to recover from our forced relocation. Back in 1956.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:13:32] Part of our struggles in the last little while is trying to recover from our forced relocation. Back in 1956.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:13:43] Based on a former S.S. DNA chief, Avenatti spoke to me about the lasting trauma his community faces because in 1956, the S.S. Danny people were forcefully relocated by the Canadian government.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:13:43] Based on a former S.S. DNA chief, Avenatti spoke to me about the lasting trauma his community faces because in 1956, the S.S. Danny people were forcefully relocated by the Canadian government.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:13:57] And so they stripped us from our traditional homeland and dropped us off on the shores of Hudson Bay with no provisions to get us through. So we had to.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:13:57] And so they stripped us from our traditional homeland and dropped us off on the shores of Hudson Bay with no provisions to get us through. So we had to.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:14:08] Make by the 1970s. Half of the community had died. They faced persecution, impoverished living conditions and substance abuse also played a role. Eventually, the leaders of the community just took off and brought their people back to their traditional lands. But quite frankly, by then the damage was done.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:14:08] Make by the 1970s. Half of the community had died. They faced persecution, impoverished living conditions and substance abuse also played a role. Eventually, the leaders of the community just took off and brought their people back to their traditional lands. But quite frankly, by then the damage was done.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:14:29] And so the psychological trauma that had impacted our people from that is still lingers today. But we are resilient in that way to try to get back on our feet. And so we’ve been developing the community since then.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:14:29] And so the psychological trauma that had impacted our people from that is still lingers today. But we are resilient in that way to try to get back on our feet. And so we’ve been developing the community since then.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:14:48] They’ve been relocated by a Canadian government department. Natural Resources Canada claiming that they were overharvesting Caribou, which was a traditional food source. And Natural Resources Canada is the very same department tasked now with overseeing green energy projects in these communities. Initially, former chief Evan Yazzie completely threw his support behind the project, hoping.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:14:48] They’ve been relocated by a Canadian government department. Natural Resources Canada claiming that they were overharvesting Caribou, which was a traditional food source. And Natural Resources Canada is the very same department tasked now with overseeing green energy projects in these communities. Initially, former chief Evan Yazzie completely threw his support behind the project, hoping.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:15:10] To be more self-sustaining with the challenges that are coming about in terms of high cost of living and the difficulties in constructing a winter road to make sure that we get all our essential goods into.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:15:10] To be more self-sustaining with the challenges that are coming about in terms of high cost of living and the difficulties in constructing a winter road to make sure that we get all our essential goods into.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:15:23] So the project had the support of the former chief and council. But because of all of the delays, there was also a local election to contend with in the First Nation. And a new chief came in and he has been more hesitant. And you know what? No one is blaming him for his hesitancy. This is what Daryl had to say on that.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:15:23] So the project had the support of the former chief and council. But because of all of the delays, there was also a local election to contend with in the First Nation. And a new chief came in and he has been more hesitant. And you know what? No one is blaming him for his hesitancy. This is what Daryl had to say on that.

Clip [00:15:42] No, the way they’ve been dealt with over the years, historically, they they don’t trust anybody. And I don’t blame them. But let’s face it, in a what any First nation project that we touch. Community engagement is the foundation of the entire project. In order to get community buy and you have to show up, get into their community and show them you appreciate that.

Clip [00:15:42] No, the way they’ve been dealt with over the years, historically, they they don’t trust anybody. And I don’t blame them. But let’s face it, in a what any First nation project that we touch. Community engagement is the foundation of the entire project. In order to get community buy and you have to show up, get into their community and show them you appreciate that.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:16:06] So the project is still moving ahead, but it’s been trimmed down now. They are hoping that they can still install solar panels and batteries that will cut down the community’s reliance on diesel fuel by about a quarter. But the years long slog continues. It’s a particularly interesting case to look at right now, given Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberal Party’s slide in popularity as part of their Climate first mantra. The Liberals had promised to completely eliminate diesel use in these northern communities by 2030, and it’s quite clear looking at this one case, that it was never going to be achievable. No one from Natural Resources Canada agreed to be interviewed for this segment, but a spokesperson did point out in an email that $453 million in funding has been committed since 2018 to fund these projects. But the project in, say, Sydney has taken years of work and government backing to get even this far. That is one community and there are 178 small remote settlements dotted across Canada’s Arctic and subarctic region that would need the same kind of commitment. Making the financial case for the development of these projects is quite hard. But from a policy perspective, it is the perfect opportunity for the country to marry its efforts on Indigenous reconciliation with their climate commitments. Particularly because Indigenous communities are feeling the brunt of climate changes impacts so far.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:16:06] So the project is still moving ahead, but it’s been trimmed down now. They are hoping that they can still install solar panels and batteries that will cut down the community’s reliance on diesel fuel by about a quarter. But the years long slog continues. It’s a particularly interesting case to look at right now, given Prime Minister Justin Trudeau and his Liberal Party’s slide in popularity as part of their Climate first mantra. The Liberals had promised to completely eliminate diesel use in these northern communities by 2030, and it’s quite clear looking at this one case, that it was never going to be achievable. No one from Natural Resources Canada agreed to be interviewed for this segment, but a spokesperson did point out in an email that $453 million in funding has been committed since 2018 to fund these projects. But the project in, say, Sydney has taken years of work and government backing to get even this far. That is one community and there are 178 small remote settlements dotted across Canada’s Arctic and subarctic region that would need the same kind of commitment. Making the financial case for the development of these projects is quite hard. But from a policy perspective, it is the perfect opportunity for the country to marry its efforts on Indigenous reconciliation with their climate commitments. Particularly because Indigenous communities are feeling the brunt of climate changes impacts so far.

Clip [00:17:40] The business case is that you can’t leave these communities alone any longer. They should have had help 20 years ago and to burn that much diesel and let those emissions keep going when we’re supposed to be going towards net zero. And somebody’s got to help them. So this is a start. It’s not the solution, but it’s a partial solution.

Clip [00:17:40] The business case is that you can’t leave these communities alone any longer. They should have had help 20 years ago and to burn that much diesel and let those emissions keep going when we’re supposed to be going towards net zero. And somebody’s got to help them. So this is a start. It’s not the solution, but it’s a partial solution.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:18:01] And if this was a promise Justin Trudeau’s Liberals wanted to make, it needed more financial and logistical support to actually deliver on what they set out to do.

Sarah Lawrynuik [00:18:01] And if this was a promise Justin Trudeau’s Liberals wanted to make, it needed more financial and logistical support to actually deliver on what they set out to do.

Jason Palmer [00:18:32] Jan. Everybody’s a gym bunny. New Year’s resolutions still have their momentum. Those crowds will soon level out, I’d wager. But one trend seems likely to stick around for those who continue to work out, aiming not just to be fitter but also stronger.

Jason Palmer [00:18:32] Jan. Everybody’s a gym bunny. New Year’s resolutions still have their momentum. Those crowds will soon level out, I’d wager. But one trend seems likely to stick around for those who continue to work out, aiming not just to be fitter but also stronger.

Tim Cross [00:18:55] And. Strength training seems to be having a bit of a moment.

Tim Cross [00:18:55] And. Strength training seems to be having a bit of a moment.

Jason Palmer [00:19:03] Tim Cross is a senior science writer for The Economist.

Jason Palmer [00:19:03] Tim Cross is a senior science writer for The Economist.

Tim Cross [00:19:06] People are increasingly going to the gym and not just spending their time on the treadmills or the exercise bikes, but also hitting the squat rack and the free weights.

Tim Cross [00:19:06] People are increasingly going to the gym and not just spending their time on the treadmills or the exercise bikes, but also hitting the squat rack and the free weights.

Jason Palmer [00:19:14] Which is good news.

Jason Palmer [00:19:14] Which is good news.

Tim Cross [00:19:15] For public health because strength training is extremely good for you. And most doctors think most people should do more of it.

Tim Cross [00:19:15] For public health because strength training is extremely good for you. And most doctors think most people should do more of it.

Jason Palmer [00:19:24] So there’s a lot of competition in the gyms now for the dumbbells, not for the treadmills.

Jason Palmer [00:19:24] So there’s a lot of competition in the gyms now for the dumbbells, not for the treadmills.

Tim Cross [00:19:28] Yeah. So Planet Fitness, which is one of America’s biggest gym chains, they actually mentioned this on an investor call recently. They said a lot of their locations, they’re taking out some of the cardio stuff and replacing it with strength equipment. The same thing is happening in the U.K. There’s a company called Places for People, which runs a lot of the municipal sports centres up and down the UK, and they’ve said they’ve seen the same thing, and it seems to be being driven by their customers. Their customers are saying we’d like more strength training stuff and maybe a bit less of the cardio piece.

Tim Cross [00:19:28] Yeah. So Planet Fitness, which is one of America’s biggest gym chains, they actually mentioned this on an investor call recently. They said a lot of their locations, they’re taking out some of the cardio stuff and replacing it with strength equipment. The same thing is happening in the U.K. There’s a company called Places for People, which runs a lot of the municipal sports centres up and down the UK, and they’ve said they’ve seen the same thing, and it seems to be being driven by their customers. Their customers are saying we’d like more strength training stuff and maybe a bit less of the cardio piece.

Jason Palmer [00:19:56] Which kind of runs counter to what we thought we knew about what’s good for you, right? The suggestion has been do regular cardiovascular exercise.

Jason Palmer [00:19:56] Which kind of runs counter to what we thought we knew about what’s good for you, right? The suggestion has been do regular cardiovascular exercise.

Tim Cross [00:20:04] Well, it doesn’t run counter, but it is added onto it. So yeah, that has been the suggestion. But in 2010, the W.H.O. with the World Health Organisation, they actually added to that and said as well as the cardio, you should try and do at least two muscle strengthening sessions per.

Tim Cross [00:20:04] Well, it doesn’t run counter, but it is added onto it. So yeah, that has been the suggestion. But in 2010, the W.H.O. with the World Health Organisation, they actually added to that and said as well as the cardio, you should try and do at least two muscle strengthening sessions per.

Jason Palmer [00:20:20] Week because.

Tim Cross [00:20:21] That’s good for you separately from doing cardio.

Tim Cross [00:20:21] That’s good for you separately from doing cardio.

Jason Palmer [00:20:24] Well, why though? What does that add to the mix?

Jason Palmer [00:20:24] Well, why though? What does that add to the mix?

Tim Cross [00:20:27] So two things, I think, and one is kind of metabolic or systemic. And I guess the way to think about it is that in the same way that your bones are more than just scaffolding on which the rest of your body is hung, they produce white blood cells and red blood cells and that kind of thing.

Tim Cross [00:20:27] So two things, I think, and one is kind of metabolic or systemic. And I guess the way to think about it is that in the same way that your bones are more than just scaffolding on which the rest of your body is hung, they produce white blood cells and red blood cells and that kind of thing.

Jason Palmer [00:20:41] Muscle is also.

Tim Cross [00:20:43] More than just that organ that moves your limbs around. It actually plays a role in metabolism as well. And so there’s evidence that if you strengthen your muscles and grow them, it improves various markers of metabolic fitness. So it makes you more sensitive to insulin. Your cholesterol levels seem to go down. It seems to reduce your risk of things like heart disease or diabetes or cancer. And this is a sort of slightly newer finding. So the evidence isn’t quite as ironclad as it is for cardio, but I think it’s pretty persuasive. And then the second thing, I think a lot of the interest in this from doctors and the W.H.O. comes from the idea that regular strength training can prevent something called Sarcopenia, which is the sort of fancy medical name for the decline in strength and muscle mass that everyone experiences as they get older.

Tim Cross [00:20:43] More than just that organ that moves your limbs around. It actually plays a role in metabolism as well. And so there’s evidence that if you strengthen your muscles and grow them, it improves various markers of metabolic fitness. So it makes you more sensitive to insulin. Your cholesterol levels seem to go down. It seems to reduce your risk of things like heart disease or diabetes or cancer. And this is a sort of slightly newer finding. So the evidence isn’t quite as ironclad as it is for cardio, but I think it’s pretty persuasive. And then the second thing, I think a lot of the interest in this from doctors and the W.H.O. comes from the idea that regular strength training can prevent something called Sarcopenia, which is the sort of fancy medical name for the decline in strength and muscle mass that everyone experiences as they get older.

Jason Palmer [00:21:28] Which in the medical view now is in some way kind of avoidable.

Jason Palmer [00:21:28] Which in the medical view now is in some way kind of avoidable.

Tim Cross [00:21:32] It’s probably not entirely avoidable, but you can certainly slow it down dramatically and there are good reasons to try. So from what we can tell, left to their own devices, your muscles start to shrink, maybe sometime in your 30s. And that disproportionately affects the fast twitch muscles that are responsible for explosive strength. And that process speeds up as you get older and older. And by the time you get into your 60s and 70s or 80s, enough of your muscle is gone that it can lead to what doctors call problems of daily living, which just means you find it hard to say get dressed independently or carry shopping or work in the garden, or even stand up from a chair. And when it gets to that point and when people’s strength and balance is that pull, you start to see an increase in the risk of things like falls, which can be quite a big killer of the elderly, it can make it harder for you to recover from injuries or illnesses, and it can even worsen the prognosis of some diseases.

Tim Cross [00:21:32] It’s probably not entirely avoidable, but you can certainly slow it down dramatically and there are good reasons to try. So from what we can tell, left to their own devices, your muscles start to shrink, maybe sometime in your 30s. And that disproportionately affects the fast twitch muscles that are responsible for explosive strength. And that process speeds up as you get older and older. And by the time you get into your 60s and 70s or 80s, enough of your muscle is gone that it can lead to what doctors call problems of daily living, which just means you find it hard to say get dressed independently or carry shopping or work in the garden, or even stand up from a chair. And when it gets to that point and when people’s strength and balance is that pull, you start to see an increase in the risk of things like falls, which can be quite a big killer of the elderly, it can make it harder for you to recover from injuries or illnesses, and it can even worsen the prognosis of some diseases.

Jason Palmer [00:22:27] So in a sense, doing a little bit of pumping iron is kind of a little sip of the fountain of youth.

Jason Palmer [00:22:27] So in a sense, doing a little bit of pumping iron is kind of a little sip of the fountain of youth.

Tim Cross [00:22:31] Yeah, that’s the idea. And these days, more and more people could use a sip of the fountain of youth because most countries are seeing their average age rise. So this sarcopenia, since it’s to some extent an inevitable consequence of ageing, is only going to become a bigger problem and a bigger burden for health systems. People have done studies in quite elderly populations, even people in their 80s that have shown that you still retain some capacity to grow muscle even then, and that strength exercise is beneficial and does help and can make you more independent. And then interestingly, there’s a secondary consideration, I guess, that people are maybe starting to pay a bit more attention to, which is that strength training may help undo some of the downsides of these increasingly popular GLP one drugs. So these are things like Wag a V that people take for weight loss. They definitely work for weight loss. But the problem with them is, as far as we can tell, some of the weight loss comes from fat, which if you’re overweight, is good. But some of it seems to come from muscle, which generally isn’t. So if they’re going to become even half as popular as some of the projections suggest they are, then we might see an awful lot more people prescribed strength training to try and counteract some of the effects.

Tim Cross [00:22:31] Yeah, that’s the idea. And these days, more and more people could use a sip of the fountain of youth because most countries are seeing their average age rise. So this sarcopenia, since it’s to some extent an inevitable consequence of ageing, is only going to become a bigger problem and a bigger burden for health systems. People have done studies in quite elderly populations, even people in their 80s that have shown that you still retain some capacity to grow muscle even then, and that strength exercise is beneficial and does help and can make you more independent. And then interestingly, there’s a secondary consideration, I guess, that people are maybe starting to pay a bit more attention to, which is that strength training may help undo some of the downsides of these increasingly popular GLP one drugs. So these are things like Wag a V that people take for weight loss. They definitely work for weight loss. But the problem with them is, as far as we can tell, some of the weight loss comes from fat, which if you’re overweight, is good. But some of it seems to come from muscle, which generally isn’t. So if they’re going to become even half as popular as some of the projections suggest they are, then we might see an awful lot more people prescribed strength training to try and counteract some of the effects.

Jason Palmer [00:23:46] So, Tim, I imagine you’re convinced now you are about to step out and go pump some iron right now?

Jason Palmer [00:23:46] So, Tim, I imagine you’re convinced now you are about to step out and go pump some iron right now?

Tim Cross [00:23:52] Yeah, I like rock climbing, which I like to tell myself is sort of strength training. So I think I’ll.

Tim Cross [00:23:52] Yeah, I like rock climbing, which I like to tell myself is sort of strength training. So I think I’ll.

Jason Palmer [00:23:56] Stick with that. Tim, thanks very much for your time.

Jason Palmer [00:23:56] Stick with that. Tim, thanks very much for your time.

Tim Cross [00:23:59] Thanks, Jason.

Rosie Blau [00:24:14] Subscribing to economist podcasts plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s all for this episode of the Intelligence. Let us know what you think of the show. You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Rosie Blau [00:24:14] Subscribing to economist podcasts plus helps make our journalism possible. Thank you. Search Economist Podcast Plus for a free trial. That’s all for this episode of the Intelligence. Let us know what you think of the show. You can get in touch at podcasts@economist.com. We’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Podcasts

Money Talks

What DeepSeek means for the AI race

This photo illustration shows the DeepSeek and Nvidia logos on screens.

Will supine Republicans approve RFK Jr and other Trump nominees?

Senate Holds Confirmation Hearings For HHS Secretary Nominee Robert Kennedy.

Editor’s Picks

The unintended consequences of pay transparency

Babbage

AI is coming for sport

Google DeepMind - TacticAI- an AI assistant for football tactics.

Why Rwandan-backed rebels seized a city in eastern Congo

Residents attempt to salvage some of their belongings from where their home once stood, now destroyed and burned during clashes in eastern Democratic Republic of Congo,

Drum Tower

How Chiung Yao shaped Chinese ideas about love and death

Novelist Chiung Yao's (Qiong Yao) portrait and her books are seen at Shanghai Bookcity in Shanghai, China.

Editorials, columns, guest opinions and your letters, all in one place

Sign up to our Opinion newsletter

Opinion

A behind-the-scenes look at how we chose and designed this week’s cover

How we chose this week’s cover image

Cover Story

Catch up quickly on the global stories that matter

Sign up to enjoy a mind-expanding mix of stories, delivered six days a week

Catch up quickly on the stories that matter

The World in Brief

A sharp round-up of the most important US political news

Sign up for updates from our correspondents and data journalists, poll tracker and election-forecast model as the 2024 race unfolds

The US in brief

Highlights from the latest weekly issue, introduced by our editor

The Economist this week

The very best of our journalism, handpicked for you each weekday

A daily newsletter with the best of our journalism

Handpicked stories, in your inbox

The Economist today

Your essential guide to global business and technology

From supply chains to semiconductors, The Bottom Line newsletter has you covered

Need to track the megatrends shaping business and technology?

The Bottom Line

Expert analysis of the biggest stories in economics and markets

Exclusive insight from our correspondents in America

Exclusive insight and reading recommendations from our correspondents in America

Checks and Balance

Analysing the challenges facing Britain and what needs to be done to overcome them

Tech stocks tumble as DeepSeek debuts a cheap Chinese AI model

Also on the daily podcast: Canada’s Arctic needs solar power and why you should lift weights

Transcript

More from Podcasts

What DeepSeek means for the AI race

Will supine Republicans approve RFK Jr and other Trump nominees?

The unintended consequences of pay transparency

AI is coming for sport

Why Rwandan-backed rebels seized a city in eastern Congo

How Chiung Yao shaped Chinese ideas about love and death

The Economist

The Economist Group

Contact

Careers