Lawrence Wong will only be the city-state’s fourth leader since its independence. Our foreign editor asks him how he hopes to balance diplomatic relationships with America and China, maintain economic success, and strengthen the country’s democracy. The impact of climate change on archaeology (11:31). And, a new biopic takes on one of the most lucrative, distinctive pieces of classical music (17:26). Runtime: 24 min

<a href="https://www.economist.com/asia/2024/05/08/an-interview-with-lawrence-wong-singapores-next-pm?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">Lawrence Wong</a> will only be the city-state’s fourth leader since its independence. Our foreign editor asks him how he hopes to balance diplomatic relationships with America and China, maintain economic success, and strengthen the country’s democracy. The impact of climate change on <a href="https://www.economist.com/culture/2024/03/14/climate-change-is-unearthing-and-erasing-history-all-at-once?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">archaeology</a> (11:31). And, a new biopic takes on one of the most lucrative, distinctive pieces of <a href="https://www.economist.com/culture/2024/05/02/bolero-is-among-the-most-lucrative-works-of-classical-music?utm_campaign=a.io&utm_medium=audio.podcast.np&utm_source=theintelligence&utm_content=discovery.content.anonymous.tr_shownotes_na-na_article&utm_term=sa.listeners" target="_blank">classical music</a> (17:26). Runtime: 24 min

Listen on: <a href="https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-intelligence-from-the-economist/id1449631195" target="_blank">Apple Podcasts</a> | <a href="https://open.spotify.com/show/12zKAMNyS2GNentUzxq9QN" target="_blank">Spotify</a>

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The Intelligence 

An interview with Singapore’s next Prime Minister

The Intelligence

The Intelligence: Singapore’s “4G” era

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Jason Palmer [00:00:03]  Hello, and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Jason Palmer.

Jason Palmer [00:00:03]  Hello, and welcome to the intelligence from The Economist. I’m Jason Palmer.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:00:14] And I’m Ore Ogunbiyi. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:00:14] And I’m Ore Ogunbiyi. Every weekday, we provide a fresh perspective on the events shaping your world.

Jason Palmer [00:00:24] A trip to windswept Scottish islands reveals a troubling trend for archaeology. Climate change is unearthing national treasures all over the place. But the land developers who typically fund archaeological digs are nowhere to be seen.

Jason Palmer [00:00:24] A trip to windswept Scottish islands reveals a troubling trend for archaeology. Climate change is unearthing national treasures all over the place. But the land developers who typically fund archaeological digs are nowhere to be seen.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:00:40] And a new French biopic tells the story of classical composer Maurice Ravel’s struggle to create his distinctive 1928 piece bolero. Could its repetitiveness have had something to do with the composer’s brain disease? First up there. Singapore is often admired as one of the world’s most successful societies. Well, at least in financial terms. It’s stability, as well as its tax and governance regimes, have long been attractive to international investors. But it still maintained strong links with China and is criticised for its illiberal domestic politics. Now change is afoot at the top and Singapore is about to come under new management.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:00:40] And a new French biopic tells the story of classical composer Maurice Ravel’s struggle to create his distinctive 1928 piece bolero. Could its repetitiveness have had something to do with the composer’s brain disease? First up there. Singapore is often admired as one of the world’s most successful societies. Well, at least in financial terms. It’s stability, as well as its tax and governance regimes, have long been attractive to international investors. But it still maintained strong links with China and is criticised for its illiberal domestic politics. Now change is afoot at the top and Singapore is about to come under new management.

Lawrence Wong [00:01:43] I accept this responsibility with humility and a deep sense of duty.

Lawrence Wong [00:01:43] I accept this responsibility with humility and a deep sense of duty.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:01:50] Lawrence Wong, Singapore’s finance minister and deputy prime minister, will take over from Lee Hsien Loong later this month.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:01:50] Lawrence Wong, Singapore’s finance minister and deputy prime minister, will take over from Lee Hsien Loong later this month.

Lawrence Wong [00:01:58] Every ounce of my energy shall be devoted to the service of our country and our people.

Lawrence Wong [00:01:58] Every ounce of my energy shall be devoted to the service of our country and our people.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:02:06] Mr. Wong will be just the fourth prime Minister since 1965, the year that Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. And among the challenges he faces is protecting the island’s economic progress amid increasingly tricky relations between China and the West. The Economist’s foreign editor, Patrick Foulis, spoke to Mr. Wong earlier this week to discuss the future of Singapore, its model for government and the risks that lie ahead.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:02:06] Mr. Wong will be just the fourth prime Minister since 1965, the year that Singapore gained independence from Malaysia. And among the challenges he faces is protecting the island’s economic progress amid increasingly tricky relations between China and the West. The Economist’s foreign editor, Patrick Foulis, spoke to Mr. Wong earlier this week to discuss the future of Singapore, its model for government and the risks that lie ahead.

Speaker 4 [00:02:36] Lawrence Patrick.

Speaker 3 [00:02:38] Stewart, who.

Patrick Foulis [00:02:39] I met Mr. Wong in a beautiful room overlooking the skyline in Singapore, which is a mixture of really old colonial buildings and hyper modern architecture in the financial centre. And I wanted to find out what his prime ministership would mean for the country and how he was going to change Singapore compared to what his predecessors did.

Patrick Foulis [00:02:39] I met Mr. Wong in a beautiful room overlooking the skyline in Singapore, which is a mixture of really old colonial buildings and hyper modern architecture in the financial centre. And I wanted to find out what his prime ministership would mean for the country and how he was going to change Singapore compared to what his predecessors did.

Lawrence Wong [00:03:01] I will be the first prime minister to be born after Singapore’s independence. All my predecessors sang two, if not three, other national anthems. I’ve only sung one national anthem. My last opera, our national anthem.

Lawrence Wong [00:03:01] I will be the first prime minister to be born after Singapore’s independence. All my predecessors sang two, if not three, other national anthems. I’ve only sung one national anthem. My last opera, our national anthem.

Patrick Foulis [00:03:16] At 51 years old, Mr. Wong was born seven years into Singapore’s existence as a nation, and he’ll be the fourth prime minister since independence for Singapore.

Patrick Foulis [00:03:16] At 51 years old, Mr. Wong was born seven years into Singapore’s existence as a nation, and he’ll be the fourth prime minister since independence for Singapore.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:03:28] Patrick, tell me a bit about Mr. Wong. What was he like?

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:03:28] Patrick, tell me a bit about Mr. Wong. What was he like?

Patrick Foulis [00:03:31] Well, I think he’s much more of a humble figure compared to some of the prime ministers Singapore’s had in the past. He’s much more accessible and also has a more typical background. So he went to his local school in Singapore rather than one of the elite schools.

Patrick Foulis [00:03:31] Well, I think he’s much more of a humble figure compared to some of the prime ministers Singapore’s had in the past. He’s much more accessible and also has a more typical background. So he went to his local school in Singapore rather than one of the elite schools.

Lawrence Wong [00:03:48] My background is what it is. I mean, if it’s helpful, it makes it more relatable to Singaporeans, so much the better.

Lawrence Wong [00:03:48] My background is what it is. I mean, if it’s helpful, it makes it more relatable to Singaporeans, so much the better.

Patrick Foulis [00:03:55] He grew up on one of the city’s public housing estates, which are where most Singaporeans live. After studying in Singapore, he went to university in the States, and he’s spoken fondly about his time busking on American streets during his university years, and in fact, has also become known for doing guitar solos on social media. So an everyman in many ways. Mr. Wong’s ascendancy means that for the first time in the country’s modern history, there is no member of the Lee family either in charge or waiting in the wings. Mr. Wong believes he can live up to his predecessors.

Patrick Foulis [00:03:55] He grew up on one of the city’s public housing estates, which are where most Singaporeans live. After studying in Singapore, he went to university in the States, and he’s spoken fondly about his time busking on American streets during his university years, and in fact, has also become known for doing guitar solos on social media. So an everyman in many ways. Mr. Wong’s ascendancy means that for the first time in the country’s modern history, there is no member of the Lee family either in charge or waiting in the wings. Mr. Wong believes he can live up to his predecessors.

Lawrence Wong [00:04:38] I believe when push comes to shove and the time comes to take hard decisions, I will do so. So long as the decision is in the interest of Singapore and Singaporeans.

Lawrence Wong [00:04:38] I believe when push comes to shove and the time comes to take hard decisions, I will do so. So long as the decision is in the interest of Singapore and Singaporeans.

Patrick Foulis [00:04:47] In one dimension, Singapore is still an exemplar and that’s the economy. It’s a combination of being open, embracing change and technology, and trying to be as smart as possible with government decision making. The more contentious bit of Singapore is its political system, which remains something rather different from a full fat Western style democracy.

Patrick Foulis [00:04:47] In one dimension, Singapore is still an exemplar and that’s the economy. It’s a combination of being open, embracing change and technology, and trying to be as smart as possible with government decision making. The more contentious bit of Singapore is its political system, which remains something rather different from a full fat Western style democracy.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:05:13] The latest Democracy Index from our sister company, the Economist Intelligence Unit, classifies Singapore as a flawed democracy. Patrick, do you see Mr. Wong strengthening Singapore’s democratic principles?

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:05:13] The latest Democracy Index from our sister company, the Economist Intelligence Unit, classifies Singapore as a flawed democracy. Patrick, do you see Mr. Wong strengthening Singapore’s democratic principles?

Patrick Foulis [00:05:26] Mr. Wong’s People’s Action Party has been the dominant force in Singaporean politics for six decades and rules continuously, but its level of control has relaxed a bit. So the centre left Workers Party won two of the country’s multi-member constituencies in 2020, a first for any opposition group in the country’s history, and it has roughly a 10th of seats in parliament, and the opposition in total has around 40% of votes. So it’s got some weight. So there is a sense in which politics, while not a multi-party system, are more contestable than in the past.

Patrick Foulis [00:05:26] Mr. Wong’s People’s Action Party has been the dominant force in Singaporean politics for six decades and rules continuously, but its level of control has relaxed a bit. So the centre left Workers Party won two of the country’s multi-member constituencies in 2020, a first for any opposition group in the country’s history, and it has roughly a 10th of seats in parliament, and the opposition in total has around 40% of votes. So it’s got some weight. So there is a sense in which politics, while not a multi-party system, are more contestable than in the past.

Lawrence Wong [00:06:06] While the majority today would like the PAP to be in power, to be in government, they would also like to see more opposition voices in Parliament. So the opposition presence in Parliament is here to stay and it’s quite clear.

Lawrence Wong [00:06:06] While the majority today would like the PAP to be in power, to be in government, they would also like to see more opposition voices in Parliament. So the opposition presence in Parliament is here to stay and it’s quite clear.

Patrick Foulis [00:06:21] But at the same time, the current outgoing Prime Minister Lee, is likely to play some role in decision making.

Patrick Foulis [00:06:21] But at the same time, the current outgoing Prime Minister Lee, is likely to play some role in decision making.

Lawrence Wong [00:06:29] While this is a Singapore tradition, I mean, you don’t find this commonly in other countries, but it’s a long standing Singapore tradition and we found it very valuable.

Lawrence Wong [00:06:29] While this is a Singapore tradition, I mean, you don’t find this commonly in other countries, but it’s a long standing Singapore tradition and we found it very valuable.

Patrick Foulis [00:06:38] Mr. Wong launched a policy called Forward Singapore in the last couple of years, which is a really large scale engagement of citizens. About 200,000 people participated. That conversation still has limits, and perhaps Mr. Wong will go further during his time in office.

Patrick Foulis [00:06:38] Mr. Wong launched a policy called Forward Singapore in the last couple of years, which is a really large scale engagement of citizens. About 200,000 people participated. That conversation still has limits, and perhaps Mr. Wong will go further during his time in office.

Lawrence Wong [00:06:56] We will have to do our best to engage Singaporeans. We will have to do our best to involve them in decisions that they care deeply about, and in shaping our future.

Lawrence Wong [00:06:56] We will have to do our best to engage Singaporeans. We will have to do our best to involve them in decisions that they care deeply about, and in shaping our future.

Patrick Foulis [00:07:07] Mr. Wong Toby in the Next Generation holds high Democratic expectations.

Patrick Foulis [00:07:07] Mr. Wong Toby in the Next Generation holds high Democratic expectations.

Lawrence Wong [00:07:12] It myself, my team. We are unable to meet up to those high expectations. If we are unable to deliver those standards and a better team arises, then Singaporeans will choose accordingly. I have no doubt about that.

Lawrence Wong [00:07:12] It myself, my team. We are unable to meet up to those high expectations. If we are unable to deliver those standards and a better team arises, then Singaporeans will choose accordingly. I have no doubt about that.

Patrick Foulis [00:07:27] So I think what’s happening in Singapore is you’ve got a dynamic, hyper rich, hyper modern society that’s undergoing more change, and that means I think the government has to be more accountable to how public opinion is shifting.

Patrick Foulis [00:07:27] So I think what’s happening in Singapore is you’ve got a dynamic, hyper rich, hyper modern society that’s undergoing more change, and that means I think the government has to be more accountable to how public opinion is shifting.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:07:41] What other challenges is Mr. Wong facing?

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:07:41] What other challenges is Mr. Wong facing?

Patrick Foulis [00:07:44] Well, Singapore had a kind of golden era where as a trading centre with a growing population, it was able to grow really fast in the era of globalisation. And what’s happening now is some of those underlying factors are heading in the opposite direction. So the world economy is now less trade centric than it was. And at the same time, the number of working age citizens is forecast to decline by several hundred thousand to about 1.9 million by 2030. And what that means is higher healthcare costs. And at the same time, that means it needs growth in the workforce to keep expanding the economy. And that’s where migration comes in.

Patrick Foulis [00:07:44] Well, Singapore had a kind of golden era where as a trading centre with a growing population, it was able to grow really fast in the era of globalisation. And what’s happening now is some of those underlying factors are heading in the opposite direction. So the world economy is now less trade centric than it was. And at the same time, the number of working age citizens is forecast to decline by several hundred thousand to about 1.9 million by 2030. And what that means is higher healthcare costs. And at the same time, that means it needs growth in the workforce to keep expanding the economy. And that’s where migration comes in.

Lawrence Wong [00:08:27] We welcome foreign professionals to work in Singapore, but it’s, it’s controlled because if it’s not controlled, I think we will be easily swamped.

Lawrence Wong [00:08:27] We welcome foreign professionals to work in Singapore, but it’s, it’s controlled because if it’s not controlled, I think we will be easily swamped.

Patrick Foulis [00:08:36] And rising numbers of people create more competition. Some native Singaporeans feel that the odds are stacked against them, with loads of highly qualified outsiders getting a better chance at the top jobs, and Singapore sits in a precarious position between China and America. It’s open to both.

Patrick Foulis [00:08:36] And rising numbers of people create more competition. Some native Singaporeans feel that the odds are stacked against them, with loads of highly qualified outsiders getting a better chance at the top jobs, and Singapore sits in a precarious position between China and America. It’s open to both.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:08:56] Tell me a bit more about that.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:08:56] Tell me a bit more about that.

Patrick Foulis [00:08:58] When terms of Singapore’s economy, it’s split between trading and doing business with the West and with Asia, including China. Meanwhile, the population majority Chinese has strong cultural and often ancestral links with China, and that does create some tensions.

Patrick Foulis [00:08:58] When terms of Singapore’s economy, it’s split between trading and doing business with the West and with Asia, including China. Meanwhile, the population majority Chinese has strong cultural and often ancestral links with China, and that does create some tensions.

Lawrence Wong [00:09:18] The global order is shifting. The unipolar moment for America has ended yet. Means the pre-eminent power in the world that’s translating to a multipolar world.

Lawrence Wong [00:09:18] The global order is shifting. The unipolar moment for America has ended yet. Means the pre-eminent power in the world that’s translating to a multipolar world.

Patrick Foulis [00:09:29] Balancing this slide between the two superpowers is tricky for a small country.

Patrick Foulis [00:09:29] Balancing this slide between the two superpowers is tricky for a small country.

Lawrence Wong [00:09:35] When a big country deals with a small country, the big country often doesn’t realise how imposing they are, and it’s very hard to find a happy balance between the two, the big and the small country at the same time.

Lawrence Wong [00:09:35] When a big country deals with a small country, the big country often doesn’t realise how imposing they are, and it’s very hard to find a happy balance between the two, the big and the small country at the same time.

Patrick Foulis [00:09:46] To hear more about this and an extended version of the interview with Lawrence Wong, listen to Money Talks, which will be out this evening on The Economist’s podcast feed.

Patrick Foulis [00:09:46] To hear more about this and an extended version of the interview with Lawrence Wong, listen to Money Talks, which will be out this evening on The Economist’s podcast feed.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:09:55] Okay, so it sounds like the new Prime minister has lots of challenges ahead of him. Do you think he’s got what it takes to deal with them?

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:09:55] Okay, so it sounds like the new Prime minister has lots of challenges ahead of him. Do you think he’s got what it takes to deal with them?

Patrick Foulis [00:10:03] I think in the economic sphere, Mr. Wong’s agenda is exactly the right one. The focus is on keeping Singapore as open as possible to the world economy, even though it’s got more turbulence.

Patrick Foulis [00:10:03] I think in the economic sphere, Mr. Wong’s agenda is exactly the right one. The focus is on keeping Singapore as open as possible to the world economy, even though it’s got more turbulence.

Lawrence Wong [00:10:17] The reality is, we are still a very tiny little island in the vast and dangerous world, which is going to get more dangerous in the coming years.

Lawrence Wong [00:10:17] The reality is, we are still a very tiny little island in the vast and dangerous world, which is going to get more dangerous in the coming years.

Patrick Foulis [00:10:26] The area where I think Mr. Wong should probably do more is on politics. It’s better to have a political system that’s more resilient, more flexible, more open to new ideas. But it’s still a bit of an open question. How far? Lawrence Wong and the fourth generation of Singaporean leaders he represents are prepared to go in that direction.

Patrick Foulis [00:10:26] The area where I think Mr. Wong should probably do more is on politics. It’s better to have a political system that’s more resilient, more flexible, more open to new ideas. But it’s still a bit of an open question. How far? Lawrence Wong and the fourth generation of Singaporean leaders he represents are prepared to go in that direction.

Lawrence Wong [00:10:50] What has happened in the last 60 years has been nothing short of a miracle. And my mission is to keep this miracle going for as long as I can, and to make sure our little red dot shines brightly for as long as possible.

Lawrence Wong [00:10:50] What has happened in the last 60 years has been nothing short of a miracle. And my mission is to keep this miracle going for as long as I can, and to make sure our little red dot shines brightly for as long as possible.

Patrick Foulis [00:11:03] Whether Singapore succeeds is important because it’s an example of how to get wealthy, how to succeed to lots of other countries around. So it’s worth watching closely.

Patrick Foulis [00:11:03] Whether Singapore succeeds is important because it’s an example of how to get wealthy, how to succeed to lots of other countries around. So it’s worth watching closely.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:11:15] And watch closely. We will. Patrick, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:11:15] And watch closely. We will. Patrick, thank you so much for coming on the show.

Patrick Foulis [00:11:19] Thanks Ore.

Speaker 2 [00:11:33] It would probably have been better for your case if you could have seen it in a full the game. Yeah.

Speaker 2 [00:11:33] It would probably have been better for your case if you could have seen it in a full the game. Yeah.

Speaker 3 [00:11:38] Well, they’re not quite as good for Ross.

Speaker 3 [00:11:38] Well, they’re not quite as good for Ross.

Madeleine Wright [00:11:42] I’m speaking with Caz Manuel, the treasurer of the Know of Swanage, which is an archaeological site that contains the remains of Iron Age and no settlements.

Madeleine Wright [00:11:42] I’m speaking with Caz Manuel, the treasurer of the Know of Swanage, which is an archaeological site that contains the remains of Iron Age and no settlements.

Speaker 2 [00:11:52] I get, I get blown over if it’s. Yes, it’s a bad day.

Speaker 2 [00:11:52] I get, I get blown over if it’s. Yes, it’s a bad day.

Jason Palmer [00:11:56] Madeleine Wright writes about foreign affairs for The Economist.

Jason Palmer [00:11:56] Madeleine Wright writes about foreign affairs for The Economist.

Madeleine Wright [00:11:59] We’re on the island of Drowzee, which is one of the Orkney Islands off the north coast of Scotland.

Madeleine Wright [00:11:59] We’re on the island of Drowzee, which is one of the Orkney Islands off the north coast of Scotland.

Speaker 2 [00:12:03] Still, archaeology underneath is here.

Speaker 2 [00:12:03] Still, archaeology underneath is here.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:06] And there’s history all around us here.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:06] And there’s history all around us here.

Speaker 2 [00:12:08] And that ditch surrounding the round test runs all the way back in round. And then this bit here is the Norse longhouse.

Speaker 2 [00:12:08] And that ditch surrounding the round test runs all the way back in round. And then this bit here is the Norse longhouse.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:17] We’re just next to the coast. And a big bay in front of me is what looks like a load of rubble. But in it is an archaeological jewel.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:17] We’re just next to the coast. And a big bay in front of me is what looks like a load of rubble. But in it is an archaeological jewel.

Speaker 2 [00:12:25] There’s an awful sticking through there. You see that, right? Yeah. So all the way along here, there’s little Iron Age buildings.

Speaker 2 [00:12:25] There’s an awful sticking through there. You see that, right? Yeah. So all the way along here, there’s little Iron Age buildings.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:33] The no. One, Joe, has been here for thousands of years, but it’s disappearing fast.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:33] The no. One, Joe, has been here for thousands of years, but it’s disappearing fast.

Jason Palmer [00:12:39] Why is that? What’s happening?

Jason Palmer [00:12:39] Why is that? What’s happening?

Madeleine Wright [00:12:41] Well, coastal erosion has destroyed most of the. No. It’s one drive.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:41] Well, coastal erosion has destroyed most of the. No. It’s one drive.

Speaker 4 [00:12:45] It’s only has a lot of coastline. And things were eroding all the time.

Speaker 4 [00:12:45] It’s only has a lot of coastline. And things were eroding all the time.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:51] Doctor Julie Bond and her husband, Doctor Stephen Doc, will lead ongoing excavations at the know of Squanto. I spoke with both of them.

Madeleine Wright [00:12:51] Doctor Julie Bond and her husband, Doctor Stephen Doc, will lead ongoing excavations at the know of Squanto. I spoke with both of them.

Speaker 5 [00:13:00] I think we’re looking at a couple of years for the roundabout, but. But what’s left of the round? I think the final third will go within the next year, a couple of years.

Speaker 5 [00:13:00] I think we’re looking at a couple of years for the roundabout, but. But what’s left of the round? I think the final third will go within the next year, a couple of years.

Speaker 4 [00:13:11] I won’t leave that. It’s. It’s just retreating back from the sea. It’ll be that these deposits will have gone from underneath. And the whole thing will then start to, to sink and to disappear that way, I think.

Speaker 4 [00:13:11] I won’t leave that. It’s. It’s just retreating back from the sea. It’ll be that these deposits will have gone from underneath. And the whole thing will then start to, to sink and to disappear that way, I think.

Speaker 4 [00:13:25] And then a big storm.

Speaker 4 [00:13:25] And then a big storm.

Speaker 5 [00:13:26] Of events that there’ve.

Speaker 5 [00:13:26] Of events that there’ve.

Speaker 4 [00:13:28] Been some very.

Speaker 5 [00:13:28] Big, bad storms this year.

Speaker 5 [00:13:28] Big, bad storms this year.

Madeleine Wright [00:13:31] Scotland now experiences more winter rainfall than had been predicted for 2050. Rising sea levels and more frequent storms are washing away the sediment where the site sits.

Madeleine Wright [00:13:31] Scotland now experiences more winter rainfall than had been predicted for 2050. Rising sea levels and more frequent storms are washing away the sediment where the site sits.

Jason Palmer [00:13:42] Rising sea levels, more frequent storms. That sounds like it’s going to be a climate change story.

Jason Palmer [00:13:42] Rising sea levels, more frequent storms. That sounds like it’s going to be a climate change story.

Madeleine Wright [00:13:46] It is Jason and Stephen. Julie think so too.

Madeleine Wright [00:13:46] It is Jason and Stephen. Julie think so too.

Speaker 4 [00:13:50] With climate change, the storminess is increasing. The sea level is definitely increasing. And so erosion is getting faster. And so it’s important that we look at these sites before they go.

Speaker 4 [00:13:50] With climate change, the storminess is increasing. The sea level is definitely increasing. And so erosion is getting faster. And so it’s important that we look at these sites before they go.

Madeleine Wright [00:14:01] Scotland is not the only place where changing weather patterns are causing a problem. Unesco reckons that 1 in 6 cultural heritage sites is threatened by climate change. In England, there’s a Roman fort called Vindolanda, and the waterlogged conditions that have preserved its famous writing tablets for millennia are now drying up in the Arctic. Permafrost is eating away at indigenous artefacts, and sites across the Middle East are being buried under tonnes of sand. But when it comes to climate change, archaeological preservation is hardly a top priority.

Madeleine Wright [00:14:01] Scotland is not the only place where changing weather patterns are causing a problem. Unesco reckons that 1 in 6 cultural heritage sites is threatened by climate change. In England, there’s a Roman fort called Vindolanda, and the waterlogged conditions that have preserved its famous writing tablets for millennia are now drying up in the Arctic. Permafrost is eating away at indigenous artefacts, and sites across the Middle East are being buried under tonnes of sand. But when it comes to climate change, archaeological preservation is hardly a top priority.

Jason Palmer [00:14:33] So is anything at all being done? Can anything be done?

Jason Palmer [00:14:33] So is anything at all being done? Can anything be done?

Madeleine Wright [00:14:36] A climate emergency was declared in 2020 by the International Council on Monuments and Sites, which deals with this kind of thing. But many archaeologists say policy makers have been slow off the mark. Funding is main problem. Archaeology tends to be bankrolled by land developers, but when it comes to climate related damage, there’s no one to pay for it. It’s costly to build protective measures, and so it doesn’t happen too often these days. But there are some benefits that come with climate change.

Madeleine Wright [00:14:36] A climate emergency was declared in 2020 by the International Council on Monuments and Sites, which deals with this kind of thing. But many archaeologists say policy makers have been slow off the mark. Funding is main problem. Archaeology tends to be bankrolled by land developers, but when it comes to climate related damage, there’s no one to pay for it. It’s costly to build protective measures, and so it doesn’t happen too often these days. But there are some benefits that come with climate change.

Jason Palmer [00:15:05] Go on. What what’s the good side of this story?

Jason Palmer [00:15:05] Go on. What what’s the good side of this story?

Madeleine Wright [00:15:08] Well, archaeologists are coming across new sites. Several of the most exciting discoveries of recent years, from Nazi warships in the Danube to ancient rock carvings in the Amazon, were revealed only after severe droughts. Storms can expose hidden gems to Skara Brae, which is a Neolithic site in Orkney, was conceived by sand dunes until it was disturbed by a storm in the 19th century. A centuries old shipwreck reappeared under similar circumstances this year.

Madeleine Wright [00:15:08] Well, archaeologists are coming across new sites. Several of the most exciting discoveries of recent years, from Nazi warships in the Danube to ancient rock carvings in the Amazon, were revealed only after severe droughts. Storms can expose hidden gems to Skara Brae, which is a Neolithic site in Orkney, was conceived by sand dunes until it was disturbed by a storm in the 19th century. A centuries old shipwreck reappeared under similar circumstances this year.

Jason Palmer [00:15:35] So the way to think about this then, is that we are losing some sites, but along the way we’re going to gain some more.

Jason Palmer [00:15:35] So the way to think about this then, is that we are losing some sites, but along the way we’re going to gain some more.

Madeleine Wright [00:15:40] Yeah, but even for those newly discovered sites, climate change poses a problem. And so archaeologists and heritage institutions are faced with a really important question. Which sites will they save and which sites will they allow to disappear or decay? Given the sheer number of sites under threat and the limited resources available, many sites will be lost. And as those sites are damaged or disappear, historical knowledge and tourism may go with them. I spoke with someone from Historic Environment Scotland who works on preservation, and she says communities need to come to terms with changing landscapes and adapt accordingly. Back in Orkney there is hope. Sites like one are turning to laser scanning and other technologies to capture a digital record for future generations. And cast told me about that on the coastline of Rusi.

Madeleine Wright [00:15:40] Yeah, but even for those newly discovered sites, climate change poses a problem. And so archaeologists and heritage institutions are faced with a really important question. Which sites will they save and which sites will they allow to disappear or decay? Given the sheer number of sites under threat and the limited resources available, many sites will be lost. And as those sites are damaged or disappear, historical knowledge and tourism may go with them. I spoke with someone from Historic Environment Scotland who works on preservation, and she says communities need to come to terms with changing landscapes and adapt accordingly. Back in Orkney there is hope. Sites like one are turning to laser scanning and other technologies to capture a digital record for future generations. And cast told me about that on the coastline of Rusi.

Jason Palmer [00:16:34] The site is being laser scanned. There’s a Lassie called Nicole Burton who’s doing a PhD, so she’s laser scanned this, and she’s carefully, and laser scan the whole thing. So we’ve got 3D models of it where recording with all the modern technology, drones and overhead photography. Photogrammetry. So we’re preserving, we’re recording everything we can. And this is all going to be publicly available when we’ve actually finished. And well, we’ve got as far as we can.

Jason Palmer [00:16:34] The site is being laser scanned. There’s a Lassie called Nicole Burton who’s doing a PhD, so she’s laser scanned this, and she’s carefully, and laser scan the whole thing. So we’ve got 3D models of it where recording with all the modern technology, drones and overhead photography. Photogrammetry. So we’re preserving, we’re recording everything we can. And this is all going to be publicly available when we’ve actually finished. And well, we’ve got as far as we can.

Madeleine Wright [00:17:07] New technology like this means we can save at least some of this wonderful history.

Madeleine Wright [00:17:07] New technology like this means we can save at least some of this wonderful history.

Jason Palmer [00:17:14] Madeline, thanks very much for your time.

Jason Palmer [00:17:14] Madeline, thanks very much for your time.

Madeleine Wright [00:17:15] Thank you. Jason.

Madeleine Wright [00:17:15] Thank you. Jason.

Matt Steinglass [00:17:27] Maurice Ravel’s Bolero is a pretty weird piece.

Matt Steinglass [00:17:27] Maurice Ravel’s Bolero is a pretty weird piece.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:17:31] Matt Steinglass is the economist deputy Europe editor.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:17:31] Matt Steinglass is the economist deputy Europe editor.

Matt Steinglass [00:17:36] It starts off with this distinctive rhythm. That rhythm repeats on the snare drum for the entire duration of the piece, 169 times. There are just two melodies in the piece. They’re repeated over and over again, eight times each over that rhythm. It starts with a solo flute. Those tunes are repeated over and over again, being passed around to different instruments in the orchestra. The piece is basically a tease. It uses that repetition to build up the expectation of something big happening, and then in the end, it just explodes all those expectations. It was originally the score to a short ballet. It’s danceable and very catchy, and it has a tendency to keep running in the listener’s head long after the piece ends. A new French biopic called Boléro tells the story of Ravel’s struggle to compose the piece in 1928, and it employs a similar kind of repetition, one that emotion.

Matt Steinglass [00:17:36] It starts off with this distinctive rhythm. That rhythm repeats on the snare drum for the entire duration of the piece, 169 times. There are just two melodies in the piece. They’re repeated over and over again, eight times each over that rhythm. It starts with a solo flute. Those tunes are repeated over and over again, being passed around to different instruments in the orchestra. The piece is basically a tease. It uses that repetition to build up the expectation of something big happening, and then in the end, it just explodes all those expectations. It was originally the score to a short ballet. It’s danceable and very catchy, and it has a tendency to keep running in the listener’s head long after the piece ends. A new French biopic called Boléro tells the story of Ravel’s struggle to compose the piece in 1928, and it employs a similar kind of repetition, one that emotion.

Matt Steinglass [00:18:58] The director and Fontaine keeps coming back over and over to Ravel’s fascination with mechanical noise, his tortured sexuality, his habit of procrastination, and his long mental deterioration. He died in 1937 of a brain disease, and some neurologists think that brain disease may have been a condition called frontotemporal dementia, which is associated with obsessive repetition. Whether the piece is a symptom of neurological dysfunction or not, it’s one of the most performed pieces around in the classical repertoire. Royalties from performances and recordings and film scores have built up to something like $100 million. But the issue of who gets all that money is complicated. Ravel had no descendants on his death. His copyright passed to his brother, who got into a car accident, married his caretaker. She then left the rights to her first husband. He married his manicurist, who had a daughter from a previous marriage, and the copyrights to all of Ravel’s works. Wound up belonging to that daughter. Evelyn penned Castelli. Under French law. The piece entered the public domain in 2016. But like the music of Bolero, the copyright story never seems to end. In 2018, Miss Pentecostals sued assassin, which is France’s musical copyright agency, arguing that Bolero was actually a collaborative work, along with the set designer Alexander Benoit and the choreographer Benny Slava Nishan Sky. That would mean that the copyright should end on the basis of the death of the last collaborator, the choreographer who didn’t die until 1972, and that they should continue to receive royalties until 2051. That case is currently before a French court, which will decide it on June 20th. Worth. Miss Montana’s movie starts off with revival in the middle of a severe case of writer’s block. Either Rubinstein, who was a flamboyant Russian dancer in Paris in the 1920s, commissioned him to write a ballet in 1928. They say.

Matt Steinglass [00:18:58] The director and Fontaine keeps coming back over and over to Ravel’s fascination with mechanical noise, his tortured sexuality, his habit of procrastination, and his long mental deterioration. He died in 1937 of a brain disease, and some neurologists think that brain disease may have been a condition called frontotemporal dementia, which is associated with obsessive repetition. Whether the piece is a symptom of neurological dysfunction or not, it’s one of the most performed pieces around in the classical repertoire. Royalties from performances and recordings and film scores have built up to something like $100 million. But the issue of who gets all that money is complicated. Ravel had no descendants on his death. His copyright passed to his brother, who got into a car accident, married his caretaker. She then left the rights to her first husband. He married his manicurist, who had a daughter from a previous marriage, and the copyrights to all of Ravel’s works. Wound up belonging to that daughter. Evelyn penned Castelli. Under French law. The piece entered the public domain in 2016. But like the music of Bolero, the copyright story never seems to end. In 2018, Miss Pentecostals sued assassin, which is France’s musical copyright agency, arguing that Bolero was actually a collaborative work, along with the set designer Alexander Benoit and the choreographer Benny Slava Nishan Sky. That would mean that the copyright should end on the basis of the death of the last collaborator, the choreographer who didn’t die until 1972, and that they should continue to receive royalties until 2051. That case is currently before a French court, which will decide it on June 20th. Worth. Miss Montana’s movie starts off with revival in the middle of a severe case of writer’s block. Either Rubinstein, who was a flamboyant Russian dancer in Paris in the 1920s, commissioned him to write a ballet in 1928. They say.

Matt Steinglass [00:21:23] The more he agreed to compose something that evoked his Basque Spanish roots. But then he began procrastinating and became obsessed by an emotional affair with the wife of one of his patrons. In another scene, he takes you to Rubinstein, who commissioned the piece to a factory and says they should do a ballet that’s an ode to mechanical modernity based on machines and so forth. Music. She says she loves his vision, but then she goes ahead and ignores it and creates this kind of seamy Spanish fantasia. Bolero was immediately a huge hit. Arturo Toscanini conducted a rendition with the New York Philharmonic in 1930 that was massively popular. Ravel said. He played it much too fast. And to a modern era, it sounds that way. In the 70s, the movie ten came out in 1979, which was a massive comedy hit. Bo Derek plays a young ingenue who insists on playing the piece during sex with Dudley Moore.

Matt Steinglass [00:21:23] The more he agreed to compose something that evoked his Basque Spanish roots. But then he began procrastinating and became obsessed by an emotional affair with the wife of one of his patrons. In another scene, he takes you to Rubinstein, who commissioned the piece to a factory and says they should do a ballet that’s an ode to mechanical modernity based on machines and so forth. Music. She says she loves his vision, but then she goes ahead and ignores it and creates this kind of seamy Spanish fantasia. Bolero was immediately a huge hit. Arturo Toscanini conducted a rendition with the New York Philharmonic in 1930 that was massively popular. Ravel said. He played it much too fast. And to a modern era, it sounds that way. In the 70s, the movie ten came out in 1979, which was a massive comedy hit. Bo Derek plays a young ingenue who insists on playing the piece during sex with Dudley Moore.

Clip [00:22:30] Derek, did you ever do it a bolero?

Clip [00:22:30] Derek, did you ever do it a bolero?

Matt Steinglass [00:22:34] The credits at the end of Miss Fontaine’s movie claim that bolero is played by an orchestra somewhere in the world, several times an hour. It’s also been reimagined by modern artists, for example, the legendary Detroit DJ Carl Craig and Berlin’s dub techno originator Moritz on Oswald. It is hardly surprising that Miss Pentecostal wishes that all of these performances were still earning her money. But the Copyright Agency Sansome says her suit is nonsense. The set designer and the choreographer had nothing to do with composing the piece, and she never claimed that it was a collaborative work until after the copyright expired. But there is something about that repetitive, permanent quality of boleros melody. Ravel himself supposedly asked a friend while he was composing it. Don’t you think there is something terribly insistent about the melody, and he might have found something fitting about the idea that its story just seems to keep on going on forever.

Matt Steinglass [00:22:34] The credits at the end of Miss Fontaine’s movie claim that bolero is played by an orchestra somewhere in the world, several times an hour. It’s also been reimagined by modern artists, for example, the legendary Detroit DJ Carl Craig and Berlin’s dub techno originator Moritz on Oswald. It is hardly surprising that Miss Pentecostal wishes that all of these performances were still earning her money. But the Copyright Agency Sansome says her suit is nonsense. The set designer and the choreographer had nothing to do with composing the piece, and she never claimed that it was a collaborative work until after the copyright expired. But there is something about that repetitive, permanent quality of boleros melody. Ravel himself supposedly asked a friend while he was composing it. Don’t you think there is something terribly insistent about the melody, and he might have found something fitting about the idea that its story just seems to keep on going on forever.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:23:53] That’s all for this episode of The Intelligence. If you haven’t got round to listening to our subscriber earnings Saturday edition yet, well, now’s your chance to. This weekend for the rest of me will be offering free access to the Weekend Intelligence, our special end of the week episode that dives into poignant, compelling, and sometimes personal stories from our correspondents. A favourite of mine back in the archives was one of our earliest episodes on fertility and IVF. By the way, you might need tissues, and if you’re already a subscriber to The Economist podcast plus, thank you. Please don’t keep the good news to yourself. Tell your friends and family that they can hear the weekend intelligence free for the next three weeks, and we’ll see you back here tomorrow.

Ore Ogunbiyi [00:23:53] That’s all for this episode of The Intelligence. If you haven’t got round to listening to our subscriber earnings Saturday edition yet, well, now’s your chance to. This weekend for the rest of me will be offering free access to the Weekend Intelligence, our special end of the week episode that dives into poignant, compelling, and sometimes personal stories from our correspondents. A favourite of mine back in the archives was one of our earliest episodes on fertility and IVF. By the way, you might need tissues, and if you’re already a subscriber to The Economist podcast plus, thank you. Please don’t keep the good news to yourself. Tell your friends and family that they can hear the weekend intelligence free for the next three weeks, and we’ll see you back here tomorrow.

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